Dreaming towards the Tonal

[HSH]

There are different ways to handle your dreams. One is to use them to redefine your inner landscape.
There is a specific Toltec knowledge about this process which I'm applying to use my own dreams as a way towards better handling the Tonal, and letting the Nagual being the base of it.
If some of you should be interested in this knowledge I'd like to teach it. However, the best way to do so is in practice, so it would entail you writing down your dreams, and me adding comments and helping you to understand them.
This can be either done here in public, which would allow others to learn by watching, or in private, by sending me an email, in case you don't want to lay open your dreams to anyone.
Either way, I'd be glad if some of you would accept this invitation, since watching this process is wonderful and thoroughly interesting, be it from which angle whatever.

[binrui]

Parece interesante.Podrias hablar un poco sobre ese conocimiento tolteca....Ultimamente he retomado mi diario de sueños,pués he comprobado que eso aumenta la lucidez en los sueños.La lucidez está directamente relacionada con recordar los sueños.El simbolismo de los sueños siempre es revelador.

El sueño de ayer noche...

Salí de mi habitación atravesando la pared de mi cuarto ,callendo sobre la calle.Lo primero que me llamó la atención era la luna ,que estaba casi llena y daba mucha iluminación a la noche.Comencé a andar por la calle,no sabía muy bién que hacer.A veces me divierto volando o saltando por las azoteas.Fuí a visitar a unos vecinos y descubrí una nueva facultad que no había desarrollado hasta ahora,consistente en mover un pequeño objeto con la voluntad de mi mente (un naipe de una baraja española).Mi vecina se quedó un poco entre divertida y asustada.Yo mismo estaba sorprendido.
Me fuí luego paseando con una amiga,con la que hablaba por la calle.Es una mujer muy hermosa,daba gusto tratar con ella,daba mucha paz y serenidad.Ya al terminar el sueño vi a un hermoso jaguar moteado ,que paseaba cogido con una cuerda por una chica.

[HSH]

Lo que pasa es que ese sistema de analizar tus suenyos no funciona bien con los suenyos lucidos que estan arranjados por el ego. Pues de esta manera traes una multitud de cosas individuales de tu propia persona, que obscuran los simbolos collectivas de la mente superior.
Asi que no puedo decir nada de ese suenyo tuyo, si tal vez tendras un suenyo no lucido algun dia podemos probar si funciona. (No es seguro, pues que es posible que tus suenyos no lucidos tambien son influidos de tu ego - especialmente en el caso que tengas muchisimos suenyos lucidos.)

La attitud mia hacia lo lucismo es que es preferible dejarlo pasar por su propia cuenta, en vez de esforzarlo por el ego. De esa manera la inteligencia superior del tonal eterno guia tus suenyos, en vez de la inteligencia limitada de tu tonal personal.

[brujo]

I had no idea of what value my dreaming practices had until I became aware that some of the feelings in my dreams where sneaking into my reality. From there I began to focus on breaking the projection of my tonal in my dreams by systematically challenging its rules.

What happened is that some of the actions performed during my dream travels became more accessible. One of the main focuses of my dreaming was to re arrange my awareness of reality.
You can learn directly rather that continuous study.

I think of it as an environment that need of all of its elements to exist. Every element has a particular function, movement, size and essence.
This essence is the object being experienced in its fluidity, its true nature.

One of the exercises the works for me is to single out an object in dreaming, unveiling every form and feeling associated with it. Also stopping the dream it self gives you a great control over the tonal since it is the tonal and its forms that are being stopped.

[HSH]

... so I should rather have called it, dreaming towards the Nagual.
...or, the way I proposed in the first post was a rearrangement of the Tonal, like dreaming towards a better Tonal, and you're suggesting the next step after that...

...would you say that "Nagual" in this case is the materia of the universe, starting with the subtle structures of the brain, but not limited to that, since actually all of the universe is everywhere... (the whole is in its parts, and vice versa)

...could you conceive that one day the Nagual is perceived as a Tonal, not like the everyday Tonal, but as a very sophisticated one, like incredibly complex patterns of molecules, photon interactions, quantum affairs,... reaching mindstaggingly high numbers, just consider a piece of materia tiny as your fingernail holds 100000000000000000000000 atoms/molecules...

[binrui]

Who is the one that dreams in the outbody experience?

I think lucidity is the consecuence we obtein of a critical and analitical behaveur in our avery day world.So if we olso have this criticism in our dreams they will turn lucid dreams,because we reach the capacity to know we are dreaming.

But lucid dreams is not an outbody experience.One needs more anergy for that.

Stop the dreams...i had not think in that before...

what does it happens if we stop dreaming?I think it may happen tho things.May happen that you awake in your real world,or perhaps you go out of your body if you have the energy.

It happens to me very offently that my dreams turn to lucid dreams.Sometimes i have the sensation that my body is out,i have the physical sensation of going out of my body.But when you are out of your body,this is you?


Yesterday,in one moment ,my dream became lucid.I could continue dreaming,but then i remind that i could stop dreaming.So I did.But i did not awaked in the everyday world,i continued dreaming the same dream,but now i felt a great energy coming into myself.This was not my mind now who decided ,it was my dreaming body who had the control.I felt very well,and my body began to move on his own control.Then I olso began to hear music,something like music was penetrating me.And a voice that gave me a message.A message which i dont know the meaning.I think it has no meaning.

[binrui]

I wonder how does it happens,how dreams sneaks into reality.But i think this is true.I have not a great knowledge,i am not a psicologist,but i haven´t heared any where,(only in Don Juan teaching),about the posibility of controlling the dreams in order to affect our totality.I have spoken about that in the interview to nagual Carlos Gustavo (Jung).I dont know if in any school of knowledge,has been treated about this matter before.

how do you challenge the rules? (I think you speak about the rules in your dreams)

But now,if you are awake, there is no object in asking where.We can challenge rules sistematically in our live.Does it olso sneaks into our dreams?.I think so.

when truth is revealed the body is afected,truth is revealed in our totality.Is hard.Some experiences of our past are there,determining our way of live.We elaborate a fantasy so that reality make no harm.So the process consist of crossing caps of dreams into reality.

[brujo]

No siempre se esta claro como pasa esto Binrui..

The best way to see is to stalk people who don´t change their point of view.

You are able to see the world in different ways.. but believe it or not some people are stuck. The way they experience the world is in another level.